Curse

moriz · Feb 23, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

i did click on the link and check it out. however, when's the last time you've heard of a character with 2400 hp? yes, the warrior's damage is more consistent, but also slower. the link also shows that eles have higher spike damage, which is perfect for those of us (which i believe is all of us) with hp in the 400-560ish range. under a well organized spike with support, no single character can possibly hold up for 1 minute. more like 10 seconds.

also, the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the game still holds. it doesn't seem like it, but it is. we just haven't found the acid for that big rock yet. this game is also a game of "what-ifs". you'll never know what you'll face.

anyways, most of you who seem to argue that eles are useless have already made up your minds. if that's the case, the discussion ends here (cue mods to close it). there's really no point trying to move a mountain for now. we'll just see how your tunes change when the "flavor of the week" changes, especially when the new "flavor" happen to be eles.

holden · Feb 23, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i did click on the link and check it out. however, when's the last time you've heard of a character with 2400 hp? yes, the warrior's damage is more consistent, but also slower. the link also shows that eles have higher spike damage, which is perfect for those of us (which i believe is all of us) with hp in the 400-560ish range. under a well organized spike with support, no single character can possibly hold up for 1 minute. more like 10 seconds.

i dont believe warrior damage is slower. you have to build up your adrenaline but while you're doing that you're still doing more damage on average than an elementalist.

players in gvg can certainly hold up under ele pressure for longer than 10 seconds. but i see you also said 'with support'. so with a couple warriors bashing that target as well it could get ugly. but then it's the warrior doing the damage and the ele is supporting him. the ele wont be able to keep up the pressure for much longer than your 10 second mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

anyways, most of you who seem to argue that eles are useless have already made up your minds.

i have yet to read even one post where anyone said ele's are worthless. you ought to edit this.

Akathrielah · Feb 23, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i did click on the link and check it out. however, when's the last time you've heard of a character with 2400 hp? yes, the warrior's damage is more consistent, but also slower. the link also shows that eles have higher spike damage, which is perfect for those of us (which i believe is all of us) with hp in the 400-560ish range. under a well organized spike with support, no single character can possibly hold up for 1 minute. more like 10 seconds.

If you payed attention to the thread you would see that elementalist spike damage is worse than what a warrior, ranger or mesmer can do. Warrior damage is also faster than elementalist damage as they are applying pressure via autoattack while building up adrenaline and don't have to deal with clunky cast and aftercast times.

And what is your definitition of a "well organized spike with support"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

also, the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the game still holds. it doesn't seem like it, but it is. we just haven't found the acid for that big rock yet. this game is also a game of "what-ifs". you'll never know what you'll face.

Then define what the rock, paper and scissor is? It certainly can't be broken down into a spike vs pressure system, since the sucess of a spike build against a pressure build depends entirely on the builds themselves and not the type they are. And breaking down this game into a "what if?" scenario is a lesson in futility because you can "what if" any build to death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

anyways, most of you who seem to argue that eles are useless have already made up your minds. if that's the case, the discussion ends here (cue mods to close it). there's really no point trying to move a mountain for now. we'll just see how your tunes change when the "flavor of the week" changes, especially when the new "flavor" happen to be eles.

Nobody said elementalist were worthless, it is that they aren't able to compare to warriors in terms of offense or battlefield presence. They are fine as a support class. And the "flavor of the week" for GvG has been for a couple of months now. It will be interesting to see what ANet does for the skill rebalancing that is supposed to be coming up.

Damonias · Feb 24, 2006, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Too Tired to quote.

Anyway. As far as spiking goes - you can correct me if I'm wrong - as I've only spiked with Rangers (which, in a long GVG where an Order Necro builds you up can do some HUGE friggen damage at the end) and Elementalists, but it takes a while.

An Elementalist using Echo Orb Does 106 damage on a target per orb (and has 25% armor penetration with that)

Two Spiking elementalists could therefore do 424 damage in 4 seconds. (Just two). I don't know of any class that can do this. The benefit of the Air build is really interrupting however. But other classes do interrupts better, so ... But for 'low end' gvg, it's not a bad build. I can be countered by Mesmer Protection Mantras and Ele Wards, but most builds can be 'countered' in some way or another.

For Earth Spiking.
Obsidian Flame does 118 damage and ignores all defenses. So, the only defense against Obsidian flame is Spell Breaker. 2 Ele's spiking with this are going to do 472 damage in 4 seconds.

I'm a mathematical person so I tend to look at things from that type of perspective. And looking through all the spells/skills in the game, I just don't see anything that matches that type of damage output. Obviously, it has it's disadvantages. (Exhaustion) But from a pure damage standpoint, I don't see anything out there that matches that.

That having been said and GVG Elementalist build would require a very organized guild to be really effective. So... It's not like I'm saying Ele's are a be all end all, I'm just saying, they can be used. And not everyone here is in a top guild where they are battling with people that know how to completely shut down casters. So an Air build for a middle of the road guild would be just fine. Once you get further up/down (However you want to look at it) you'd probably want to switch to earth. But Air is easier to manage to start. Once your into an Earth build, your Energy becomes moot for the most part, as you time your spikes with the rest of your team and don't really attack so much as just being 'defensive' with wards. So, the whole attunement thing falls to the wayside. But early on, Attunement builds for Fire or Air are nice for those who just want to spam cast as they figure out the whole GVG thing with their guild.

Also when I said 3 enchantments, that's assuming no one else on your team is casting any on you. And YES - you can have 3 mesmers take out all your enchantments (or 1 necro). And yes, you can have your effectiveness reduced. But the wonderful thing about GVG is that you have teammates. And teammates are great and wonderful things. You don't take on the entire team by yourself. Which means, that in all likeliness, you WILL have the 1 minute of time it takes to get everything back up if you happen to be using an air build with the 2 attunements. HOWEVER, if the other team doesn't catch you, you're gonna be able to do a lot of damage.

In GVG - one person is always shutdown first for the most part. Doesn't really matter what class it is so much. Some classes are better at withstanding that initial attack than others is all.

(Is that more clear for you?)

Sometimes we need to look at things from the perspective of ... 'Not everyone is an end game gamer.' And that people need to go through things and learn things on their own. You can say 'that build sucks in comparison to...' all you want, but there are a lot of people who will probably never face the build your talking about and will probably be very happy never having done so.

LightningHell · Feb 24, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonias

Blaha di blah blah blah.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Obsidian Flame has a 5 second recharge, and Protective Spirit can, and will, pwn it. Also, if you KD the person, no matter Resolve or not, there's still that interrupt.

I believe that diminutive Mesmer over there can also pump that few hundred damage in those same four seconds.

I'm not an end-gamer myself, only in the second-last mission.

Damonias · Feb 24, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

*sighs* Use Arcane Echo for Obsidian Flame. I mentioned it for the Air one, I figured people would figure it out. Sorry I didn't mention it again. And yes your right about Portective Spirit - I'd completely forgotten about that (And stupid me, I play a monk too) ... Good catch. And for interrupting - Again, it's a team game. I was using a simple example to try and keep things ... well ... simple.

In any type of spiking build, you have several people attacking the same person (as I'm sure you know) really, the name of the game is to do as much damage in your first round of attacks as possible, to try and kill someone in one shot. Which is possible with a team of Elementalists, I've had it done to me. I've also had it done to me in 'two' shots with a team of Rangers that were dead on with their timing as well.

So, once again, it's a TEAM game. I was trying to explain things simply so that most people could understand and not get into the team mechanics of timing up spikes and such for single attacks, because well, that's just complicated and best left for another form.

So, to say I 'obviously' don't know what I'm talking about is really just a silly personal attack which serves no purpose. You 'obviously' are a very rude and immature person. But I will say that you know what you are talking about, good for you.

LightningHell · Feb 24, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

...how immature can I get?

Look at my other posts. I might have that 1 post which is more offensive.

Well, let's get back on topic.

(First thing, sorry. I didn't mean to insult you.)

Well...you'd need Glyph of Energy to pump out that damage, and you'd need to factor in the cast time for the Glyph. I assume you do it once w/ glyph and once w/o glyph (both with glyph is far too slow, if you're doing it with 2 eles...)

Of which, 2 Gale axemen (though I prefer hammer) can kill more quickly. They can consistently knockdown the opposition, AND deal damage. I am talking about 4v4.

(Oh and by the way, that comment over there, that "explain things simply", I think you'd better pack that off somewhere else. Since you're preaching to the converted here, or whatever that would be.)

Damonias · Feb 24, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Appology accepted.

Don't mean to snap - I just find that most of the people that actually read the various Class forms aren't people that actually use the class half the time, and are just people trying to be difficult.

As for the warrior thing. I have to assume that that works extremely well. You see it used in top guild guild battles all the time.

PVP 4 player - I never actually used my Elementalist. I always use my Ranger or Monk. So, I will agree with you in that sense. For an Elementalist build to be effective, you need more people. 8vs8 I was taken out by 4 Ele's(and I'm assuming the other people attacked me at the same time as well) in one shot, no chance of surviving at all. And it was an Obsidian Flame Attack. So, I KNOW it works. Yes, there are lots of ways to defend against it, but in PVP there seems to be a lot of 'luck of the draw' involved, where some builds just really work well against others.

Playing An Elementalist, the Exhaustion aspect and the need to use Glyph then Spell .. over and over just to manage exhaustion kind of turns me off PVP 4v4 for Ele's. GVG I've tried it with some success, but after going against a few Guilds in a row - where I had Enchantments removed and then was disrupted over and over until I was dead - I switched to my Ranger

But in all those cases I was the only Ele in the group, and I think for Ele's to be successful, you need more than one, otherwise they are just an easy target.

LightningHell · Feb 24, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Oh, 8v8. I get it

Usually, it's 5(sometimes 4) Earth spikers, and 3 monks. The 1 leftover is something else, allowed for the team builder to choose, if there is a leftover. Those are the ones I've seen. :P

By the way, I definitely play an Elementalist. It's my favorite, most-used, and most familiar class, hands down.

squan · Feb 24, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Well my nuker was my second char to reach lvl 20. but since the AI update it is hard for a nuker to play with warcamp farming. all party's go for Tank, bonder, healer, MM, SS.
That is why i made a Necro and a Monk. well both are maxed no.
BUT......i think nukers are going to be wanted when Factions comes out. first of all, you will need party of 8 and secondly i think nuker will have kick ass new skills. Fingers Crossed

moriz · Feb 24, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

examples in rock paper scissors? the counter for any ranger spike is called a hill (or a wall, etc). the counter to any warrior is called body blocking and sympathetic visage. the counter to sympathetic visage is enchantment stripping. the counter for 55 monks is called vampiric gaze. the counter for that 700+hp warrior is called "grent's balance" and "crippling shot". the counter for IWAY is something my guildie came up with (no idea if it's already well-known). the counter for the counter for IWAY is *gasp* a nuker!

anyways, i saw a character in random arena last night that can potentially be good coupled with a few ele spikers. it was a necro/monk with grent's balance. at the start of each match, that player will lower her(?) health as much as possible with infuse health (i believe). then we chose a target (the closest one, generally), and then she uses grent's balance while the rest of the team hit that target as hard as possible. we won a few times straight (flawless each time) with that strategy. you guys can probably devise something so this is useable in a 8vs8 situation.

Akathrielah · Feb 24, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonias

Too Tired to quote.

Anyway. As far as spiking goes - you can correct me if I'm wrong - as I've only spiked with Rangers (which, in a long GVG where an Order Necro builds you up can do some HUGE friggen damage at the end) and Elementalists, but it takes a while.

At the end? Good ranger spike is a 1k damage spike(yeah you read it right) from the get go, the only thing limiting it is the order necro's energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonias

An Elementalist using Echo Orb Does 106 damage on a target per orb (and has 25% armor penetration with that)

Two Spiking elementalists could therefore do 424 damage in 4 seconds. (Just two). I don't know of any class that can do this. The benefit of the Air build is really interrupting however. But other classes do interrupts better, so ... But for 'low end' gvg, it's not a bad build. I can be countered by Mesmer Protection Mantras and Ele Wards, but most builds can be 'countered' in some way or another.

Four seconds (and its not even 4 seconds, its 4.75 seconds since you forgot to factor in aftercast and its more if you put in flight time) is not a spike. And its 560 damage not 424 since LOrb does 140 vs AL 60, so 4 orbs x 140 damage = 560. Which is a pretty poor spike, considering a pair of axe warriors without orders can deal around that much damage in about half that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonias

For Earth Spiking.
Obsidian Flame does 118 damage and ignores all defenses. So, the only defense against Obsidian flame is Spell Breaker. 2 Ele's spiking with this are going to do 472 damage in 4 seconds.

Which still does nothing, granted Obsidian Flame is superior to LOrb in all aspects except damage (unless its against rangers or warriors, then ob flame is better as well). And Obsidian Flame is affected by all prot skills, including prot spirit and reversal of fortune. Opps.

4 seconds is a damn long time in game, especially when Infuse or a Booned RoF is only 1/4 second cast. A competant infuser under the best conditions can fire it off correctly on your target in about half a second with decent reflexes, and anything over a second will be caught by even the slowest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonias

I'm a mathematical person so I tend to look at things from that type of perspective. And looking through all the spells/skills in the game, I just don't see anything that matches that type of damage output. Obviously, it has it's disadvantages. (Exhaustion) But from a pure damage standpoint, I don't see anything out there that matches that.

Eviserate -> 112 Max Damage/ 80 damage average@ 16 axe attribute + 96 damage (assuming 485health) from deep wound = 208 damage Max/176 damage on Average. Spike length -> Instant

A warrior can follow up with Executioner's Strike for another 112 Max/80 Avg for a grand total of 320 Max/256 Avg damage. Spike Length ->.89 sec (under frenzy) / 1.12 seconds Normal

Shatter Delusions + Phantom Pain -> 79 damage SD @ 16 Domination + 96 damage (assuming 485 health) from deep wound from shattered PP= 175 armor ignoring, unerring damage. Spike Length -> .9 second @ 9 fast cast

Dual + Punishing Shot w/ Orders-> 180 projectile damage average @ 16 Marksmanship w/RtW and Vampiric 5/1 bowstring + 39 damage @ 12 Blood -> 219 Avg damage. Spike length -> .5 seconds

Lightning Orb -> 140 projectile Damage vs AL 60 @ 16 air. Spike Length -> instant

Lightning Orb + Lightning Strike -> 140 damage vs AL 60 @ 16 air + 70 damage vs AL 60 @ 16 air = 210 damage vs AL 60. Spike Length -> 1.75 Seconds (.75 aftercast + 1 second cast), flight time not factored in

Obsidian Flame -> 118 Damage Armor Ignorning /Unerring @ 16 Earth -> instant

Unmatched output? Hardly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damonias

In GVG - one person is always shutdown first for the most part. Doesn't really matter what class it is so much. Some classes are better at withstanding that initial attack than others is all.

(Is that more clear for you?)

Sometimes we need to look at things from the perspective of ... 'Not everyone is an end game gamer.' And that people need to go through things and learn things on their own. You can say 'that build sucks in comparison to...' all you want, but there are a lot of people who will probably never face the build your talking about and will probably be very happy never having done so.

If a class has no place in an "end game" environment, it has no place in the game. Its like using a SUV in a drag race, why bother? Now before any says anything, yes elementalists are useful, they are good as a support class since they can belt out spells constantly because of ether prodigy (Heal Party spam, blind spam, etc). But elementalist are, all in all, a very poor offensive class.

And more importantly, wouldn't the game benefit as a whole if the Elementalist class went from simply being a blindbot or warder to something far more solid?

Akathrielah · Feb 24, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

examples in rock paper scissors? the counter for any ranger spike is called a hill (or a wall, etc). the counter to any warrior is called body blocking and sympathetic visage. the counter to sympathetic visage is enchantment stripping. the counter for 55 monks is called vampiric gaze. the counter for that 700+hp warrior is called "grent's balance" and "crippling shot". the counter for IWAY is something my guildie came up with (no idea if it's already well-known). the counter for the counter for IWAY is *gasp* a nuker!

A turtle ? That varies from build to build. Body blocking against warriors only works in tight spaces and sympathetic visage is countered by target switching. 55 monks ... what the hell? We are talking about PvP right? Health saccing for GB ends very poorly, especially since Gale warriors will just gale you after you sac yourself low and ranger spike will just cream you. The counters for IWAY are many, and their effectiveness depends more on the skill of both teams. And most of these scenarios you are describing hardly applies to 8v8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

anyways, i saw a character in random arena last night that can potentially be good coupled with a few ele spikers. it was a necro/monk with grent's balance. at the start of each match, that player will lower her(?) health as much as possible with infuse health (i believe). then we chose a target (the closest one, generally), and then she uses grent's balance while the rest of the team hit that target as hard as possible. we won a few times straight (flawless each time) with that strategy. you guys can probably devise something so this is useable in a 8vs8 situation.

Key words - random arena.
A Grenths balance infuser is not something you want running around when there are a lot of angry men and women running around with sticks with large pieces of metal attached to them.

Damonias · Feb 24, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

At the end? Good ranger spike is a 1k damage spike(yeah you read it right) from the get go, the only thing limiting it is the order necro's energy.

Four seconds (and its not even 4 seconds, its 4.75 seconds since you forgot to factor in aftercast and its more if you put in flight time) is not a spike. And its 560 damage not 424 since LOrb does 140 vs AL 60, so 4 orbs x 140 damage = 560. Which is a pretty poor spike, considering a pair of axe warriors without orders can deal around that much damage in about half that time.

Which still does nothing, granted Obsidian Flame is superior to LOrb in all aspects except damage (unless its against rangers or warriors, then ob flame is better as well). And Obsidian Flame is affected by all prot skills, including prot spirit and reversal of fortune. Opps.

4 seconds is a damn long time in game, especially when Infuse or a Booned RoF is only 1/4 second cast. A competant infuser under the best conditions can fire it off correctly on your target in about half a second with decent reflexes, and anything over a second will be caught by even the slowest.

Eviserate -> 112 Max Damage/ 80 damage average@ 16 axe attribute + 96 damage (assuming 485health) from deep wound = 208 damage Max/176 damage on Average. Spike length -> Instant

A warrior can follow up with Executioner's Strike for another 112 Max/80 Avg for a grand total of 320 Max/256 Avg damage. Spike Length ->.89 sec (under frenzy) / 1.12 seconds Normal

Shatter Delusions + Phantom Pain -> 79 damage SD @ 16 Domination + 96 damage (assuming 485 health) from deep wound from shattered PP= 175 armor ignoring, unerring damage. Spike Length -> .9 second @ 9 fast cast

Dual + Punishing Shot w/ Orders-> 180 projectile damage average @ 16 Marksmanship w/RtW and Vampiric 5/1 bowstring + 39 damage @ 12 Blood -> 219 Avg damage. Spike length -> .5 seconds

Lightning Orb -> 140 projectile Damage vs AL 60 @ 16 air. Spike Length -> instant

Lightning Orb + Lightning Strike -> 140 damage vs AL 60 @ 16 air + 70 damage vs AL 60 @ 16 air = 210 damage vs AL 60. Spike Length -> 1.75 Seconds (.75 aftercast + 1 second cast), flight time not factored in

Obsidian Flame -> 118 Damage Armor Ignorning /Unerring @ 16 Earth -> instant

Unmatched output? Hardly.

I like this - I do have some questions however.

1. Phantom Pain has a delay for that extra damage of 10 seconds which you didn't mention and is considered a hex in that time, 10 seconds is a lot of time to remove a hex. Does the warrior attack have a delay before deep wound kicks in?

2. How long does it take an Orders Necro to build it up that high? Perhaps when I've had an Orders Necro with me, they just haven't been doing it right. But it seems to take a fair amount of time.

Symbol · Feb 24, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Phantom Pain has a delay for that extra damage of 10 seconds which you didn't mention and is considered a hex in that time, 10 seconds is a lot of time to remove a hex. Does the warrior attack have a delay before deep wound kicks in?

Shatter delusions.

Quote:

2. How long does it take an Orders Necro to build it up that high? Perhaps when I've had an Orders Necro with me, they just haven't been doing it right. But it seems to take a fair amount of time.

What are you talking about? You don't need to "build anything up". Orders is an enchant. Once you put it up, you get the extra damage.

Damonias · Feb 24, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Removing Phantom Pain triggers the Deep Wound? I was not aware of this. Interesting to know.

Ordering does 13 (at 12, not sure what it does at 16 Attrib) so 26. (just getting the two spells going at the same time) My understanding (At least what I'd been told) about order of pain (It has an instant recharge) ... was that its bugged and that the recast of it, while its still running, increases the damage that much further. Such that in combination with Order of Vampire, you can have 4 Orders running if you get your timing dead on. (if you have an item that increases your enchantment by 20%)

I could be wrong, this is just what I was told by someone who does it for UW Farming with a Ranger.

Anyway, we are taking this conversation FAR away from Elementalists. I'll look through the necro boards for an answer to my Order question.

moriz · Feb 24, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

i'm not even sure what's the point of this thread now. it started with someone asking for comfirmation that eles are still integral part of pve and pvp. then the "pve" part got lost somewhere, and now we're on necros.

anyways, the answer to both the pve and pvp parts are: yes, they are still integral parts of both. their roles might not be the same as it was, but they're still needed.